You have faced much flak from the Hindu right wing for your writings. Why?
You'll have to ask them why. It doesn't seem to me to have much to do with the book. They don't say, "Look here, you said this on page 200, and that's a terrible thing to say." Instead, they say things not related to the book: you hate Hindus, you are sex-obsessed, you don't know anything about the Hindus, you got it all wrong. The objections seem to be a) I presume to know things about Hindus that they didn't know; and b) I was saying things about the Ramayana which they didn't like.
If whatever you say about the Ramayana is all there in the texts, why don't we recognize it? Who bowdlerized it and when?
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| Author and researcher Wendy Doniger: Hinduism is such a wonderful religion, because people are allowed to have their own texts: |
It happened over the centuries. After all, the oldest Ramayana is well over 2,000 years old. Over the years things have happened, Hinduism has changed a lot. It probably started with the Bhakti movement -in the sense of the passionate worship of a single god. Rama did things in the Ramayana that the Bhakti movement wouldn't have said about him, had they written the Ramayana.
So puritanism crept into the Ramayana around the 10th century?
Yes, I guess so. It's not just puritanism, but the idea that Rama was a perfect man and couldn't have made a mistake. Did you, for instance, know that in the Tulsidas version, the real Sita never went with Ravana to Lanka, but a chhaya (shadow) Sita went to Lanka?
So how do you explain the many versions of the Ramayana - many of them very subversive texts - that have survived along with the Ramayana we now know?
That's why Hinduism is such a wonderful religion. It's because people are allowed to have their own texts: there was no Pope or ulemas to say you may not tell the story that way-until now. You have groups that say Rama would never have sent Sita away so we have the shadow Sita who went to Lanka instead of the real Sita.
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| A painting depicting Hanuman, Lakshman, Rama and Sita |
Then you have other stories that say that in fact Lakshman was really in love with Sita , which of course Tulsidas doesn't say, and neither does Valmiki. And you have stories in which Sita is the daughter of Ravana.
Until recently, there was no one who said there was only one way to tell the Ramayana. Everyone in India knew that the stories were told differently, because women married into different families and right away there was a different story. And no one would say that you got it wrong.
Is it in Valmiki's version that Rama thinks his father, Dasaratha, is a sex-addict?
Lakshman is the one who actually says it. He says the king is hopelessly attached to sensual objects. But Rama himself says (at 2.47.8) that the king is kama-atma, entirely consumed by kama.
You also suggest that because Rama is afraid of turning into a sex addict like his father, he throws Sita out after enjoying sex with her?
You have a chapter in Valmiki's Ramayana where Rama was so happy with Sita, they drank wine together, they were alone, enjoying themselves in every way, indulging in various ways, not just the sexual act. And in the very next chapter he says I've got to throw you out. So I'm suggesting: what is the connection between those two things? And what does it mean that Rama knows that Dasaratha, his father, disgraced himself because of his attachment to his young and beautiful wife. So I'm taking pieces of the Ramayana and putting them together and saying these are not disconnected.
So you are saying his fear of following in his father's footsteps is making him betray his own sexuality?
Yes, I am. Or even of being perceived that way. Remember he keeps repeating: "People will say…." Maybe he knows that his love for Sita is much purer than Dasaratha's love for Kaikeyi.
But even so, he is afraid that people who noticed Dasaratha's love for Ram will say that like his father, he too is keeping a woman he should not because he's so crazy about her. So he fears public opinion will connect him with his father.
Yes, I think that's there -- but it's not the only thing there is in the Ramayana. It's just something others haven't pointed out, so I thought I'd better point it out.
Isn't that foolhardy, especially when you are already the target of Hindu outrage?
Not really. There's no point in writing a book if you don't say what you believe. Otherwise you have to stop writing, and I didn't want to do that. My real fear is that I might not be able to return to India and that's a very sad thing for me. Two of my colleagues can't go back to India because there are court cases against them for blasphemy. But I think liberal forces are gaining ground in India. The Supreme Court threw out the last blasphemy case saying it was nonsense. I am hoping to return to India next year.
What has been the response so far from American Hindus?
My favourite one on Amazon accuses me of being a Christian fundamentalist and my book a defence of Christianity against Hinduism. And of course, I'm not a Christian, I'm a Jew! I'm very Jewish, and all my writing is very Jewish.
Historians point out that the first temple for Ram was built only in 10th century AD, whereas the Ramayana was composed between 3rd century BC and 3rd century AD. How do you explain it?
Well, in order to have a temple you have to have a real movement. You have to have a lot of money, land, a whole system of building temples, which the Hindus did not have at first. The Buddhist were the first to build temples-the stupas. But Hindu worship originally was the puja. The king of course had royal ceremonies like the ashwamedha and so on. But Hindu people mainly did their own puja-you had the family priests, you had your Agni sacrifices. But it took the Bhakti movement to organize Ram or Shiva worship. The Kama Sutra does not refer to temple worship, it talks only of festivals you go to. Hinduism underwent changes from the organized religion of the Vedic period before you had temple worship.
So temples to Ram came at the same time when the Ramayana was becoming more straitlaced?
Exactly. People invested in how Rama should be. When you build a great big temple to a man who was perfect, then you can't tell these kind of stories in that kind of a temple.
Courtesy: Outlookindia.com |
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